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DRAFT

SCOTTISH PAY REFERENCE AND IMPLEMENTATION GROUP (SPRIG)

Minutes of SPRIG meeting held on 8 September 2004 at Stirling Management Centre

Present:

Jane Anderson
Grace Brash
Iain Cree
Eddie Egan
Janine Emerson
Michael Fuller
John Gallagher
Brian Houston,
Lynne Khindria
Mike Palmer
Ian Reid (Joint Chair) (in the Chair)
David Renshaw
David Robertson
Susan Russell
Cameron Scott
Brian Steven
Elizabeth Stow
Morag Thomson
Rona Webster
Gordon Wenham (Joint Chair)

Apologies

Julie Burgess, Jim Devine, David Esplin, Lindsey Ferries, Hamish Johnston, Alex Killick, Gillian Lenaghan, Janis Millar, Colin McGowan, Dorothy McKinney, Patricia McNally, Melanie Stewart, John Turner, Gordon Walker

Minute of last meeting

1. Minutes of meeting held on 18 August 2004 were approved.

Matters arising

2. Work is in progress on the points in items 6 - 9.

3. Ian Reid agreed to circulate advice before the 22 September meeting about the claims for Equal pay (item 32).

ACTION POINT: Ian Reid/ Mike Palmer

National Update

4. Discussion concentrated on the use of generic job descriptions and concerns that they might have a tendency to standardise the approach which is causing a high level of anxiety on a professional and geographical basis.

5. It was accepted that individual job descriptions are entitled to individual consideration in the evaluation and matching process.

6. It was recognised that there was pressure within the system to find short cuts to the process because of the tight timescales and that the scale of the task within the service could not be achieved within timescales. This necessitated streamlining the methodology.

7. There is support for the use of generic job descriptions which originate from pilot sites and are used as a starter to add and take away from. West Lothian confirmed that this was their approach but that individuals still had to confirm and agree their own job descriptions.

8. Guidance based on the pilot site experience was available on the web site and individuals must be allowed to approve their job descriptions in order that they take part fully in this process. This may need to be reviewed to include the sharing of good practice from the pilot sites. Guidance is needed on what staff can do if they do not agree to sign off a job description.

9. The use of the word "generic" needed clarification as it was thought that this could be misleading. Alternative words suggested included "draft" or "core".

10. It was accepted that there was value for matchers and analysts in the use of generic job descriptions. Core definitions from the current system have been incorporated into the new job descriptions however there is a need for template guidance to ensure the "factors" are all included as current job descriptions don't cover some of these.

11. Clustering of groups who have the same job descriptions was seen as a slightly different scenario. This had been done in the pilot sites but with the proviso that job descriptions which stood out and were different should be revisited individually.

12. It is important for staff to fully understand the use of "generic" job descriptions and their implications. It is also important for them to understand what differences can be attributed which would influence the outcome of evaluation.

13. Job descriptions are accepted as a tool to facilitate the matching process but essentially staff are interested in the outcome of the band not how or what they have to include to produce a specific result. Local, i.e Scottish discussions should be encouraged to help staff understand the whole process so that when they are given the outcome of their job evaluation the risk of protests or appeals is minimised.

14. The West Lothian team were asked and agreed to produce guidance on the process for SPRIG to agree before issue.

ACTION POINT: Lynne Khindria

15. It was seen as very important to use the experience of the pilots sites but to also get local agreement on job descriptions. Job descriptions should be seen as coming from SPRIG not any of the individual pilot sites and should be used as a starter for ten. The refinement process undergone in West Lothian should be acceptable and SPRIG would not be encouraging people to challenge the generic job descriptions.

16. SPRIG were asked to be mindful of the recent problems experienced with the guidance on job plans for the Consultant's Contract and the importance of getting this clear on Agenda for Change from the outset.

Scottish Update

17. The networks for KSF and JE were up and running. David Renshaw will produce a paper on JE which he will circulate before the meeting on 22 September. This will include what happens with new jobs after implementation.

ACTION POINT:David Renshaw

Report from Shadow NHS Staff Council meeting 2 September

18. Ian Reid announced that four documents had been approved and these were on the SHOW website. The documents are:

19. The Terms and Conditions Handbook is still being worked on and should be available within the next few weeks. A question was asked on how comprehensive this would be and if the T&C's Guidance group would get sight of it for comment. David Renshaw said they had seen the original version but not the revised version. The Shadow Executive are holding a meeting next week to discus unsocial hours and annual leave issues. David Renshaw and Janis Millar were asked to get an update on the T&C's handbook.

ACTION POINT: David Renshaw / Janis Millar

20. The dates of the individual TU Ballots had been noted.

21. The decoupling of the unsocial hours provisions was approved and appreciated. There is a clear need to adhere to the timetable set for the introduction of revised unsocial hours provisions.

22. The next meeting of the Shadow NHS Staff Council will be in mid November. It will be useful for staff side organisations to have representatives from Scotland at these meetings. Nominations are organised through respective organisations.

23. It was pointed out that some members of staff had access to documents before they were officially released on the web. It was agreed that there was a need to ensure that SEHD was given advance notice of publication dates and times so that members of SPRIG could be informed accordingly.

24. David Renshaw said that an index of Job Profiles would be published at the end of October/ beginning November. He was asked if Scotland could do anything sooner but David was concerned that there were still some changes to be made to some profiles and an interim position might lead to confusion. There was a request to improve the presentation of the profiles to make searching easier. Iain Cree agreed to investigate this with David Renshaw.

ACTION POINT: Iain Cree/ David Renshaw

25. JEWP were thanked for all their hard work.

26. Mike Palmer said that all new handbooks would be issued under cover of an official PCS from SEHD.

Minister's letter

27. The background to the Minister's letter was explained and that during discussion he was keen to establish the cause of the protection issues and to find out if it was representative of the whole of Scotland and how and why did it differ from England. Once that was clear the issue on how it can be addressed could be taken forward.

28. Ian Reid talked through his note sent out after the Minister's letter and confirmed the need to know the extent of the problem first before going back to the Minister.

29. Lynn Khindria said that her team had revisited the admin/clerical grades and that there were some significant changes to Medical Secretaries around accountability. This would create some reductions in protection. Linked grades were causing difficulty as the lower grade had a tendency to come through in the evaluation process. Finance and HR posts were also a problem.

30. The West Lothian test bed was considered too small to be indicative of the Scottish picture. Experienced matchers in West Lothian would be prepared to undertake further testing from posts in a larger Health Board for example Glasgow or Dumfries and Galloway. Other factors to take into consideration were the remote and rural posts which would be different due to the levels of supervision being less that in bigger Health Boards. It was also accepted that the EI sites used a different baseline.

31. The Finance Group were trying to access the impact and Brian Steven said that Glasgow could accommodate a further test providing a wider sample.

32. NSS also had issues around protection and in additional work undertaken only one job moved out of protection. The sample of jobs needs to be chosen very carefully.

33. It was noted that Radiographers would also be affected because of the linked grades.

34. Solutions were required as a matter of urgency on these groups before balloting was underway. It was also recognised that staff in the admin/clerical and HR would be crucial for implementation which made them even more of a priority. There was concern that if this was not addressed in Scotland then it would not be addressed at all and lead to UNISON rejecting AfC.

35. Recruitment and Retention was an option to be considered for some staff groups and this need to be explored fully and costed.

36. The issue of increased hours leading in effect to pay cuts and "mark time" were also raised as protection issues that needed to be addressed.

37. The changes in working hours had implications for new starts, who after 1 December, may be working more hours than their supervisors. Health and Safety together with lone working need to be addressed.

38. Eddie Egan suggested exploring options on retaining the hourly rate and giving protection to pay differential but also giving a pay rise on the new pay band. These were principles which had been applied to Low Pay Agreement and had already been accepted.

39. David Robertson expressed a personal view on exploring "protectable earnings" which was different from no detriment.

40. Gordon Wenham suggested that themed weekly meetings could be a way forward in focussing in on these issues and finding ways to address them. It was accepted that there would be short and long term issues to address and that themes for the meetings would need to be prioritised for action bearing in mind key dates for implementation and upcoming ballots.

41. It was also mentioned that the conditionality of any solutions agreed now would have to be considered in light of what might happen in April 2006. The need for caveats to protect against financial implications at a later stage could not be ignored.

42. There was disagreement on the ability to separate protection and the implications of a revised unsocial hours provision due in April 2006. It was thought that most unions would re ballot on unsocial hours in 2006 and there was a need to focus on the proposed agreement as it stands now.

43. It was important to work from a clear validated work position and then be creative and innovative about potential solutions. The Minister should be given an early indication of work in progress and then regular updates as and when required. All the financial implications of any proposed solutions would have to be fully explored before presentation to the Minister.

44. It was accepted that elements which made up "protection" needed to be clearly identified for inclusion in discussion. Practical examples from the pilot sites should be looked as well as pressure points such as the 5 cancer centres that employ radiographers.

Work Programme

45. Future meetings will be held every Wednesday and these should be given priority for attendance.

46. Themed meetings will commence on the 29 September and SPRIG members were asked to put forward priorities and themes for consideration at the meeting to be held on 22 September in St Andrew's House. These should be sent to Janis Millar and Grace Brash. Members were also asked to bring along any supporting evidence to these meetings for debate and development of solutions and recommendations. The meetings will all be held in Stirling Management Centre.

ACTION POINT: all SPRIG members

47. The meeting on Thursday 16 September at Dalien House, Glasgow would concentrate on Admin/ Clerical, Protection and Radiographers.

48. It was agreed to prepare and issue a letter from SPRIG to the Service saying that SPRIG are trying to find Scottish solutions to certain issues and that meetings will be held weekly.

ACTION POINT: SPRIG Co-chairs/Grace Brash

49. The Pilot sites are now considered officially finished however there will still be some additional work to be carried out using the expertise and experience of staff in the Pilots. Work will be commissioned by SPRIG who will decide who will be asked to carry out the work.

AOCB

CAJE

50. David Renshaw issued an update paper on the current position. He will be writing out shortly with more details covering the need for dedicated resource in each of the Scottish sites, the UK roll-out timetable the availability of a call centre facility for 9 months to handle initial enquiries.

ACTION POINT: David Renshaw.

Consultant Contract

51. Julie Burgess is working on briefing papers for Fees and Mental Health which she will issue shortly.

ACTION POINT: Julie Burgess

Date of next meeting.

Thursday 16 September in Dalien House, Glasgow at 2pm.

Following that there will be a meeting on the 22 September in St Andrew's House.

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